Ash–I think they were more just waiting for me to figure it out. I could tell they were amused when it finally dawned on me. Part of the issue is that I’m primarily used to guided meditations, which are mostly sight oriented, and only what you see is important. So it never really occurred to me to ask about who I *didn’t* see!

While I don’t consider what I do shamanism per se, my trad does emphasis the need for spirit allies” (our jargon) in regards to working with the Otherwords. I don’t always see them myself. I think I will ask my own spirits about this next time I do trance work.

I like the approach that there is no “right way” to approach shamanism. I also like the “tunnel/Harner” reference. For what it’s worth, I’ve recently felt the “call” of the shamanic path and, after picking up Harner, felt like I’m doing everything wrong. It left me with the impression that “if I don’t instantly see the Tunnel, I’m doing this wrong.” Your affirmation of this makes me feel much more comfortable as a beginner.

I haven’t yet had reason to go to the Upperworlds, and may not for a good long while. I think sometimes people expect that they must go up their immediately to be a “real” shaman (again the choreography of core shamanism). I’ll be curious about your experiences there, since it’s wholly new territory.

I can be pretty hard on myself, but I wouldn’t keep plugging along if I didn’t think there was something to all of this. OTOH, I do try to be cautious and avoid self-delusion; without having the benefit of a pre-existing cosmology, I’m basically drawing the map as I go along.

I do appreciate you noting the improvement in my confidence, though. I think sometimes it’s hard to get a good perspective on what I’m doing since I’m, well, in my own head. This means a lot coming from you, and I know that if you saw me something really asinine that you’d call me out on it, so it’s not just “I wanna make Lupa feel good”

Ohhhh it really really doesn’t. I mean this is me we’re talking about, probably one of the more self-destructive people I know. What a champion I am for the cause, eh? *grin*

But in all seriousness, I am a big supporter of an ensemble approach to journeying. But then over the past few years, I’ve seen more and more what damage can be done to people who genuinely journey without that, and have even had to clean up after them a few times (to basically help retrieve Urt fragments that were split during such journeys).

Erynn’s writings on the topic (especially her critique of Core Shamanism because of it’s dumbed-down and therefore dangerous approach to journeying) within that thread were also very in line with my own ways of thinking about it.

A person who has practiced Wicca for 10 or even 20 years may still never have come into contact with the Otherworlds, and still – when going into shamanism on this level for the first time – be out of their depth until enough time, patience and hard-work has been sunk into the practice. It doesn’t invalidate any of that previous experience, it’s just as you say, a different area of study. Kind of like a lateral leap.

The hard work over the past fairly intensive seven years (which isn’t much, really, though I suppose it’s a lot when you look at my age) has gifted me with an ensemble which is particularly adept at helping me out in the Underworlds, which is where I do a great deal of my work. In those seven years, I have had the opportunity to become more familiar with certain places, spirits and deities, and also with soul work.

Now I am being called to the Upperworlds, for the first time in seven years. And I suppose even I myself am aware of, and humbled by, just how much I *don’t* know. I also know that the majority of my ensemble cannot come with me into the Upperworlds, except for perhaps Ovatne. So I am in many ways starting anew, too.

None of your experiences are invalid or wrong or anything like that, and your dedication to always increasing and expanding your knowledge (with your willingness to self-question) is admirable. I sometimes think you may doubt too much at times (but I think that’s normal too, you know?). But lately I have seen a newer spiritual confidence in yourself, I wonder if this corresponds also with your established connection to Animal Father.

Okay, enough rambling from me!