jenett–Some really good things there. I’m seeing the more I read that it’s okay to bring my own agenda to the table, that I don’t have to only do what is asked of me, but that it can go both ways within reason. Also, I agree on the being changed as a way of improving yourself for mutual benefit–I think, as I’ve mentioned to others, that one of my biggest worries has been that all the suffering would be for no real reason. So it’s good to have more confirmation that this isn’t the case.

dogemperor–replied on LJ

Sheta–Done!

Ash–I really like the “hand” analogy. That makes quite a bit of sense!

Amehana–”Shaman, heal thyself” indeed! Someone else mentioned the concept of illness/wounds as being necessary for compassion as well. The shaman is not all-powerful, and I think in our society of rugged individualists it’s a good reminder that we all depend on each other to an extent. Also, it really sounds like you have a healthy, fulfilling relationship there, and I think I need more examples of that, just as a reminder that it’s not all terrible and stressful and exhausting!

Soli–Being on the fringe I can deal with. Having a chronically dysfunctional life is something entirely different. And I agree on the potential trendiness of spirit work–when the shininess wears off, and nothing is getting done, it ain’t gonna be pretty! With regards to the god slavery thing, I can certainly see the parallels in there, but I can also understand that it’s not for everyone. Being familiar with the one does help me make sense of the other, but that’s just me.

Sara–No offense taken You tend to have a good way of putting things, and I like hearing what you have to say. Your thoughts on compassion in the shaman’s role rings true on a number of levels–if you haven’t been there, it’s tougher to empathize with someone’s experiences and therefore you may not have as much of a connection to what’s really wrong. You hit the nail on the head with what’s wrong with a lot of Western traditional medicine, too–give it a pill and hopefully it’ll go away. As for serving community, I’m beginning to see a concept of mediation between the natural world and the destructive things people do becoming more prominent. As nice as it might be on some levels to sequester myself away and just worry about the critters, there’s got to be interaction with people–including those who are doing a lot of damage. Not an easy thing to do, to be sure, and something that will probably ask a lot of me. Course, there’s also the balance of making sure that humans caught in the crossfire are tended to, too. We get harmed by pesticides and other pollutants, too. And you’re right about not being able to separate things out; I really need to get over that dichotomy.

Elizabeth–Fortunately, from what people seem to say, my initial worries are largely unfounded, and while the powers that be may push us some, there’s generally an ultimately beneficial reason for it.

Estara–That resonates with a lot of what folks have been explaining to me, and it’s good to have your confirmation as well!

Theokleia–You’re quite welcome! People sometimes wonder why I blog this out in the open. Part of it is because I’m not the only one who can potentially benefit from the discussions here. Glad it helped!

Amanda–1. When a simple “Ahem” doesn’t work 2-4. Sounds like you have a good balance going there. I think that’s something I need to remember–that ultimately this is the relationship that I personally make with the powers that be.

Solo–Mua-ha-hah!

Baphometis–Good perspectives and things to keep in mind. I’m under the impression that before I go and sign the dotted line, so to speak, that I will get a decent explanation of what’s expected of me. The biggest issue will be whether I can (and am willing to) handle that, and how much wiggle room I’ll have. I am not the most disciplined practitioner in the world, so this may be a “shape up or ship out” situation, though the tools for the former are certainly there. Any improvements in me and my life will undoubtedly be mutually beneficial–the followup post I’m writing will address that in more detail.

Janet and Danmara (since you both said very similar, complementary things)–I think a lot of the problem is the concept that truly religious people (regardless of religion) must always submit to higher powers just because they’re higher powers. Granted, the responses I’ve seen have shown more backbone than that, but it’s a definite theme in American religious culture overall. So sometimes it’s good to have a reminder to not be a doormat.

“Being a shaman will ruin your life.”
If there is anything that might “ruin” your life, it would be blatantly ignoring a call. Or at least that is how I interpret it. I know there are many stories out there from various cultures about what happens to people who ignore vocational callings.
I will also add in a comment Diana Paxson has made on this subject, or a paraphrase at least. She says that this kind of work should be an enhancement for your life, not something that pulls you more away from life. While I do realize that for some it does inevitably mean being put on the edges of society, that doesn’t also mean that your life should regularly be falling apart.

“The gods/spirits are bigger than we are, therefore we have to lie down and take whatever they give, whether we consent to it or not.”
Bullshit. Gods and spirits LIKE to see spine, and hel, I’d be wary of any who wants a devotee who just lies back and “takes it.” At the risk of starting up controversy, I’ve seen a subset of people claiming to be “God slaves” and whenever I do my hackles go up. I also don’t like seeing bdsm terminology entering in to the spirit worker community.

“There’s no way out.”
Depends. If you make the oath to do this work, then you better have a damn good reason if you ever can’t do it anymore. Also note that, can not, not a “don’t wanna do this anymore moooooooom!” I also worry about spirit workers getting its own group of trendies coming in and claiming to do it for a little while. I know I want to be FAR away when the shiny wears off. I realize this goes far off what you said, but that’s just the first thing that came to mind.

“If you aren’t suffering, you aren’t doing it right.”
Again, I refer to Paxson’s comment above–I think any magic worker of any stripe whose life is completely out of control is the one doing it wrong. When you’re more tied into that general magical current, it’s going to reflect your life even more strongly. I have no respect for supposedly great witches/magicians/spirit workers who can’t have any stability in their life. (And yes I understand life throws curve balls. It’s how you handle them that counts.)

[i]I don’t think that anyone would say shamans are better than anyone else for taking this path, or that the people that serve them are in unending debt to them. A shaman should be supported by its community for what it does, kept feed, roofed, and clothed, however, they don’t gain wealth or happiness from this path and it is often a thankless life.[/i]

This got me thinking (like I ever stop, even when my brain’s all mushy it keeps going…).

The suffering, at times, is real for me, particularly if I’m being lazy about answering my calling. Yes, it happens… if someone brings something to me that needs to be attended and I don’t do it I get my butt chewed figuratively speaking. Usually I get nagged at, though there have been times that I’ve weakened a bit and had to build my way back up. I do a lot of healing work (if I got paid for it I’d be in a different situation, maybe I should consider a healing practice a little more seriously). I can’t say that what I practice is shamanism (someone might classify it that way… dunno). I do know that it takes quite a bit of my life. The community I serve isn’t really a traditional community either though…

I get a lot of spirits that come to me for help, for a place to rest, to be heard. I have people come to me with their problems, though not as often as a doctor would. I have friends that I occasionally help when they have need.

What caught my attention in her reply was “a shaman can’t heal one self.”

Strikes true… in my own healing process I’ve needed quite a bit of help. One helps others, and when needs help, they have to find it. This sounds true with others that I’ve talked to in my networking, and we’ve all ended up holding up mirrors for each other (and in some cases rather aggressively smacking each other in the face and pointing at giant gaping wounds that need attendance).

I’ll agree that from what I know, it’s not that appreciated a role any more. Times have changed, the role is taken over by others for people looking for quick fixes. Society moves on, looking for the easy way, a way to avoid looking into the self and others, looking to avoid the questions that interacting with the spirit world brings.

Now, doing the things that I do I can’t say really ruins my life. Takes u a lot of it, makes my co-parent wonder why I haven’t mellowed with the years he’s known me, makes him wonder why I can’t leave it and be “normal,” but not ruin it. What I do is my life. It’s who I am, who I was meant to be, who and what I will also be.

These are my thoughts though, and still others are still seeking that connection, looking to escape the pain that not following the calls brings. There are still those that listen, and spirits still choose to call those people to task (and some that would rather not hear).

An injured shaman may not be able to serve to their best ability though. Pain can be a really good distraction from helping others. A bit of pain is good, it keeps us at a level where we can care. Too much clouds the senses and the mind, locks us in caverns in our minds, deafens us to the cries of our fellows. These are my thoughts though, take them as you will.

Now, shifting to the original post, I’d like to speak in regards to the spirit/human dynamic. My primary is the one I’ll speak about. He can be a rump at times, but he does care. He’ll show it in odd ways, he’ll fight back when I’m a rump myself, he’ll knock stuff over if he has to… but he’s also hauled my rump out of tight spots when he’s with me, gotten help at times that I refused to go for any (and chewed me out well when I was healthy enough to take it) and put up with a lot from me. In our case, it’s sort of symbiotic, he helps me, I help him, we annoy and amuse each other. I’ve had friends also sensitive to the spirit world listen to us bicker and joke, and laugh when he’s tried to make his point that I’m tackling a problem wrong and I eventually see his point.

Could he wreck my life if so inclined? Probably. Is there a way out of it? Yeah, but it would require giving up a lot of things that I take for granted, and some things that I treasure greatly. I’m not willing to give up those things. If I have to help people and spirits, then that is what I will do in exchange for the gifts that I have found. Maybe some sorts of suffering aren’t suffering but more like that pain one gets after exercising…

A lot would have to be shut down, and I know from the parts of me that have been opened that it will be painful to shut them again. There are many initiations that I have gone through in this life, and the path back isn’t one that I’d savor. Nor do I wish to break vows that I have made. It would be a waste of my time, and of those that I work with / have worked with… embodied and not.

God-beings that I work with don’t generally tend to ask much of me, and the things that they have asked for, I have been able to do. The goddess Athena I used to work closely with when I was in school, later when I was pregnant she came to me and asked that I name my daughter in her honor. My daughter Athena in turn has been blessed with great intelligence (though she doesn’t always use it), independence, and skill. Amaterasu, Susanowo, and Tsukiyomi, from a completely different pantheon, have helped me with some aspects of myself, as well as has Quan Yin. In return, I give them thanks and a place of honor where I work. When I skied actively, I worked with the spirit of the mountain, did minor things in his honor, and he helped me in return (and when my friends got hurt racing, we were all happy in that the injuries, though bad, were not as bad as they by rights SHOULD have been with the ways that they fell.

Again, these are my experiences in my own path…

Perhaps it is a good thing that the primary spirit that I work with is considered a guardian in regards to the function he serves for my family and I (well, when we aren’t being stubborn gits that insist a babysitter isn’t needed). I’m not asked to go out and fight, or to give all my goods away. I am asked to do what I can for my family, those around me, and the lives that I touch. I sometimes goof up pretty good too…

So basically… once again Lupa and her commentors managed to help bring up to the surface words for my thoughts.

The curmudgeonly part of me is kind of dismissive of this. In grad school, people complain about how busy they are and how difficult their classes are. My coworkers complain about busy they are and how difficult their assignment it. And pagans complain about how god-bothered they are. Meh. I think there is just some plain ol’ human status seeking/posing going on. Having said that, I’m sure there are people taking hard classes, working difficult jobs and/or working with demanding and difficult spirits. Still, I take many of these claims with a grain of salt, personally.

I want to echo Jennet’s comments above about tool. Based on my world view, I would frame it slightly differently as I see myself as part of the divine. Instead of tool, I would say “hand.” If I am making something, I may scrape my hand or tire it out. But I certain want to take care of it and feel my hands pain as my own (and really is me). So even if lefty and righty have their own individual nature and self-awareness, their pain is my pain. If I hurt them it is either an error in judgment or because I had a really good reason and I don’t escape the consequences either.

I don’t think that spirits inflict pain willy-nilly. At least not spirits I would want to get involved with. Again, I agree with what Jennet write above about re-shaping. My path involves a lot of clearing of blocks and refine to become more authentically myself. By doing this, I am opening more and able to express my divinity/do my own Will/do the Will of the gods (which I kind of see as the same thing). The process of purification/refinement can involve culling away that which does not serve me. This can be behaviors, relationships or even just stuff. And bringing in new behaviors, relationship or stuff that is a better fit for me. This change can be scary and stressful, but in the sense of growing pains. In my view point, it is not forced upon me by the spirits, but rather is something that I am seeking and actively choosing as I want this.

I’ll read this shortly. I wanted to offer you a link exchange. I’ll add you to my blogroll (http://www.spiritcompanion.com) if you add me to yours. I’m still figuring all this out, but am trying to move from Blogger to my own site (which was going to waste).

a) Not all shamanic traditions have such a thing as “shamanic illnesses”.

b) In general, at least among the *older* traditions I’ve read about such things, the shamanic illnesses were starting when one was having arguments with one’s self about taking this path and generally *resolved* when one went to taking the shamanic path. (The “shamanic illnesses” among mul–Korean medicine women–come to mind; they may have a shamanic illness which originally *brings* them to that path, but it’s not something they really suffer from afterwards.)

The whole reason that there are shamanic illnesses (in traditions that even accept such a thing–and as noted, *not all shamanic traditions do*) is that something is out of balance internally that one has to pretty much accept–and once one accepts this, things go back into balance.

c) Quite a lot of stuff about people being called to shamanic stuff is in part due to stressors or change in their life in general–the way I see things, it’s more of a change shoving you in the general direction of shamanism, not the other way around.

In short: I don’t think you have a damn thing to worry about here.

In regards to “having to take what the gods dish out, for good or for ill”:

Erm, bullshit. Especially in earlier traditions, part of a shaman’s *job* is in essence to set things back in balance–including, on occasion, being assertive and telling whatever you are working with “no”. (Often this is done with the backup of other spirits, too.) If you’re just going along with a god’s whim, that’s being a *priest*, not a *spirit worker*, and not even a particularly good priest at that IMHO.

Then again, I also see the spirits et al as much as *people* as well as being Beings of Power. They breath and eat and shit and have Bad Days just like the rest of us. It’s just that bigger things tend to happen if they have good or bad days (and they tend to more extremes in being nice and being assholes too). Spirits may have a valid reason for being cranky, or they may well just be cantankerous. I will note that my own viewpoint is probably not conventional, though.

And yes, this includes not necessarily wanting to deal with someone on a regular basis who persists in being a butthead. Being of Power or no.

In regards to the “There’s no way out” argument:

As I understand it, a shaman is in part what one is, and partly what one does. I also am a firm believer in that whilst being *receptive* to the spirits and what they have to say doesn’t always change, how one *reacts* and even *how* one communicates with the spirits *can* change over time. People grow and different skills (both physical and cognitive) develop in meatspace at different times, and things grow in some areas and lessen in others over time. No reason why astral senses and how one reacts with stuff astrally shouldn’t change, either.

In regards to the “no pain, no gain” argument:

See section on “shamanic illnesses”. In general, both the traditional “initiatory shamanic illness” (that many people think is a must with being a shaman–again, only some shamanic traditions actually have such a thing; some shamanic paths just rely on whomever is particularly good with dreamwork, etc.–I wish people would stop assuming that X documented experience is universal for all traditions X, Y, Z, and Foo) and difficulties in shamanism are generally an indication that You’re Doing It Wrong. You either have a block in you or you are needing to be cluebyfoured about something to adjust your perceptions or you’re working with something that clashes with what’s “innate” to enough of an extent that it’s giving you the metaphysical equivalent of a hamstring injury or migraine. Either way, it’s a signal something’s out of balance.

The trick isn’t necessarily to “work through the pain”–the trick is more to see what is out of balance and how it can be set back into balance. Sometimes it’s something external, sometimes it’s internal. The trick is to know how far to “push” without risking the metaphysical equivalent of a blown hamstring with the internal stuff (where you’re growing) and the wisdom to tell the difference between internal and external stuff…and that’s pretty much a lifetime thing, really. (It’s also in part why the really old traditions have formal initiations and stuff. Think of it like metaphysical exercise coaches.)

In terms of the ‘crisis’ sort of thing, and having gone through something similar just before and for a while after my 2nd degree (divorce, financial issues, deaths of loved ones of close friends where I was doing tons of support, 3 moves in 18 months, you name it on pretty much everything except medical stuff.)….

It was hell. I do not want to do that ever again, please, if I can avoid it.

But it was necessary to reshape my life into a place where I could do the religious work I was committing to. (Or, at least, most of it was.) The relationship that ended in divorce was on its last legs, and staying with my ex would have hindered my ability to priestess as well as I could in all sorts of ways.

I think that if I hadn’t wanted to priestess in the ways I did, this might not have been needful. But I did, so some reshaping needed to happen. Here’s the thing: I’d do it all over again, knowing what I know now. Hell at the time, it has continuing ramifications in every area of my life – but I’m so much better off now.

–The gods/spirits are bigger than we are, therefore we have to lie down and take whatever they give, whether we consent to it or not.

There’s a line from one of my favorite fantasy series – Lois McMaster Bujold’s Chalion series, where she has one of the most realistic senses of deity interaction, in the sense that the spirit workers I know see those interactions.

There’s two particular quotes which I’m going to paraphrase.

One is (in terms of deities and what they might ask of you): “You are the tool, not the work. Expect to be valued accordingly.”

This, on one hand, sounds absolutely horrible. On the other hand, it’s a constant reminder to me of where the priority is. My deities want me to have a happy life – but they also have goals (which I very much agree with) where my happiness is a nice bonus, but not actually required. If I can be happy, and doing that Work, great. If not, the Work still needs doing. I’m committed to doing the Work, so my choice is, in a sense, made.

(That said, the reassuring thing about that quote is that a good craftsman takes care of their tools: I feel very strongly that by doing the work I’m asked intelligently and carefully, I will also be tended to whenever possible without risking the work.)

The other quote, in paraphrase, is the idea that the Gods must act through us: it is only by us choosing to allow them to act that they can do much in our world.

It is possible (and desireable) to set appropriate limits. It is desireable for us to speak up and say “That will break me.” It is desireable for us to say “If I do this, I cannot do that. Time and energy forbid.”

One of our standard guidelines for aspecting work is “Leave the body (and mind) of the person doing it in as good or better shape than you found it.” It covers a surprising number of things, and it gets the point across. I’ve had some really touching and moving experiences from it, too.

Other negotiations are possible, and there are times when ‘leave in worse state’ may be worth agreeing to. But I’d rather have it be a fairly conscious and deliberate agreement.

–There’s no way out.

Not a shaman, but my own take:

The oaths and commitments I make change me forever. If I ‘redo the wiring’ (as I believe my initiatory experiences have done, in part), then there are changes there that I may never be able to undo.

One of my covenmates who is far more shamanically inclined (but not online much, or I’d encourage her to come post) has said that this is work she can’t *not* do. Stuff shows up and talks to her, whether she likes it or not. The only choices she really has are to totally block everything out (which is massively self-destructive in a number of ways), or to have some way she can more or less live with to cope with it. Training helped. Practice help. Learning how to say “Not now, but I’ll be ready to talk this evening.” to whatever spirit wanted her attention in the middle of her work day.

Take this for how you will. I think there’s ways out. I also think choices have consequences, and some of the consequences can be incredibly hard going. It doesn’t mean there aren’t choices, but your personal priorities may limit which ones were viable for you. (The covenmate in question, for example, would have to shut off a tremendous amount of her identity to go back now. It’s extremely unlikely that choice will ever be palatable to her, because it would impact her work, her relationships, her friendships, her home, etc.)

–If you aren’t suffering, you aren’t doing it right.

Martyrdom is so unsexy. May be my kink but…

That said: I go for the “You must be *willing* to suffer” – you must be willign to keep going at it, when it’s not pleasant, and you’d rather be asleep, or doing something else, when it’s not convenient, when all sorts of other “buts” get in your way.

I don’t think the actual suffering part is nearly as obligatory as the willingness to do it when necessary. And I think most of the time, it should be the most joyous sort of delight, of doing something you’re called to, and know intimately, and yet are still challenged by. Doesn’t mean there won’t be hard times – but that they’ll be in perspective of doing the stuff that makes your soul sing.

Not that I’m one to talk or anything, because I’m so not, but.