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	<title>Comments on: The Quandary of the Other</title>
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	<link>http://therioshamanism.com/2010/02/20/the-quandary-of-the-other/</link>
	<description>In the silence of the wild, we find the home we lost in the city. --John Muir</description>
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		<title>By: ravenari</title>
		<link>http://therioshamanism.com/2010/02/20/the-quandary-of-the-other/#comment-1758</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[ravenari]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Feb 2010 10:21:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://therioshamanism.com/?p=317#comment-1758</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;I think it makes a hell of a lot of sense that since even in small communities there were often multiple types of shaman, who may have had different roles and comfort levels in the community, that now that we have these enormous, globally-active communities, there’d be even more variety and movement&quot;

To a degree, there is; but on the flipside, the more globalised culture gets, the more homogenised it gets too. That&#039;s why - I believe - almost everyone thinks &#039;shamans&#039; are Core shamanists if they&#039;re neo-shamans, and American Indians or Siberians if not. 

So in smaller communities, you have accepted variations of behaviours that would now be - in many corners - considered mental illnesses because they&#039;re no longer in the mainstream paradigm, and don&#039;t fit in the globalised homogenised consciousness of what &#039;shamanism&#039; is.

It&#039;s sort of a catch 22 that there are more opportunities to diversify as the culture grows, and yet less opportunities to be accepted by that culture if you *do* diversify. You get stuck in situations where neo-shamanists have to really *fight* to be distinguished from Core Shamanists in their practices. Instead of the assumption = &#039;shamanism means a variety of practices, and cultures, whether contemporary or not&#039; you often have the assumption = &#039;shamanism = Core shamanism or plastic shamanism.&#039; 

It drains me to journey, always; I can just get to where I need to go quickly, these days. If my tiredness is anything to go by, it may even be that the cost of being able to just &#039;be Over There&#039; by wanting to be Over There and applying the right lateral step to it, is me falling asleep midway through the journey state.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;I think it makes a hell of a lot of sense that since even in small communities there were often multiple types of shaman, who may have had different roles and comfort levels in the community, that now that we have these enormous, globally-active communities, there’d be even more variety and movement&#8221;</p>
<p>To a degree, there is; but on the flipside, the more globalised culture gets, the more homogenised it gets too. That&#8217;s why &#8211; I believe &#8211; almost everyone thinks &#8216;shamans&#8217; are Core shamanists if they&#8217;re neo-shamans, and American Indians or Siberians if not. </p>
<p>So in smaller communities, you have accepted variations of behaviours that would now be &#8211; in many corners &#8211; considered mental illnesses because they&#8217;re no longer in the mainstream paradigm, and don&#8217;t fit in the globalised homogenised consciousness of what &#8216;shamanism&#8217; is.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s sort of a catch 22 that there are more opportunities to diversify as the culture grows, and yet less opportunities to be accepted by that culture if you *do* diversify. You get stuck in situations where neo-shamanists have to really *fight* to be distinguished from Core Shamanists in their practices. Instead of the assumption = &#8216;shamanism means a variety of practices, and cultures, whether contemporary or not&#8217; you often have the assumption = &#8216;shamanism = Core shamanism or plastic shamanism.&#8217; </p>
<p>It drains me to journey, always; I can just get to where I need to go quickly, these days. If my tiredness is anything to go by, it may even be that the cost of being able to just &#8216;be Over There&#8217; by wanting to be Over There and applying the right lateral step to it, is me falling asleep midway through the journey state.</p>
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		<title>By: therioshamanism</title>
		<link>http://therioshamanism.com/2010/02/20/the-quandary-of-the-other/#comment-1757</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[therioshamanism]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Feb 2010 10:21:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://therioshamanism.com/?p=317#comment-1757</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I think it&#039;s not even so much an issue of how pure our motives are, as it is simply being aware of our reasons regardless of subjective &quot;purity&quot;. I figure if we go in aware of what we&#039;re doing, to include awareness of both our successes and mistakes, and we&#039;re as honest and genuine as we can be about it, that&#039;s a good start.

There are cases of either/or, good/bad outside of monotheistic religions, but I think the approach to these polarities is a bit different. The concept, for example, of &quot;hot&quot; vs. &quot;cold&quot; things in Malawi culture isn&#039;t so much about good/bad as it is situational needs. A person who is already &quot;hot&quot; doesn&#039;t need more &quot;hot&quot; activities or other influences.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think it&#8217;s not even so much an issue of how pure our motives are, as it is simply being aware of our reasons regardless of subjective &#8220;purity&#8221;. I figure if we go in aware of what we&#8217;re doing, to include awareness of both our successes and mistakes, and we&#8217;re as honest and genuine as we can be about it, that&#8217;s a good start.</p>
<p>There are cases of either/or, good/bad outside of monotheistic religions, but I think the approach to these polarities is a bit different. The concept, for example, of &#8220;hot&#8221; vs. &#8220;cold&#8221; things in Malawi culture isn&#8217;t so much about good/bad as it is situational needs. A person who is already &#8220;hot&#8221; doesn&#8217;t need more &#8220;hot&#8221; activities or other influences.</p>
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		<title>By: therioshamanism</title>
		<link>http://therioshamanism.com/2010/02/20/the-quandary-of-the-other/#comment-1756</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[therioshamanism]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Feb 2010 10:17:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://therioshamanism.com/?p=317#comment-1756</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[*nods* That&#039;s a good point. It&#039;s tough to get past our roots. Stephen Larsen made a similar observation in The Shaman&#039;s Doorway (which is fresh in my mind since I just finished it--great read on the mythology and psychology of shamanism!)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>*nods* That&#8217;s a good point. It&#8217;s tough to get past our roots. Stephen Larsen made a similar observation in The Shaman&#8217;s Doorway (which is fresh in my mind since I just finished it&#8211;great read on the mythology and psychology of shamanism!)</p>
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		<title>By: therioshamanism</title>
		<link>http://therioshamanism.com/2010/02/20/the-quandary-of-the-other/#comment-1755</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[therioshamanism]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Feb 2010 10:16:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://therioshamanism.com/?p=317#comment-1755</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Oh, wow. Yeah, that&#039;s definitely one of &quot;those&quot; stories!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh, wow. Yeah, that&#8217;s definitely one of &#8220;those&#8221; stories!</p>
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		<title>By: therioshamanism</title>
		<link>http://therioshamanism.com/2010/02/20/the-quandary-of-the-other/#comment-1754</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[therioshamanism]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Feb 2010 10:16:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://therioshamanism.com/?p=317#comment-1754</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Yeah, this ties in, too, with that locked post you made where there was discussion about community-integrated vs. community-isolated shamans. I think it makes a hell of a lot of sense that since even in small communities there were often multiple types of shaman, who may have had different roles and comfort levels in the community, that now that we have these enormous, globally-active communities, there&#039;d be even more variety and movement. 

See, for me, it does take effort to do more than cursory communication with the spirits. Not tons and tons, unless I&#039;m doing serious journeying, but I bet it does come easier to you than to me.

As to the distance, I was mainly going for the perceptions most people here have, which is having a definite divide between humans and Nature/spirits. The spirits are still closer to me than to most folks, and I see them as much more immediate.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yeah, this ties in, too, with that locked post you made where there was discussion about community-integrated vs. community-isolated shamans. I think it makes a hell of a lot of sense that since even in small communities there were often multiple types of shaman, who may have had different roles and comfort levels in the community, that now that we have these enormous, globally-active communities, there&#8217;d be even more variety and movement. </p>
<p>See, for me, it does take effort to do more than cursory communication with the spirits. Not tons and tons, unless I&#8217;m doing serious journeying, but I bet it does come easier to you than to me.</p>
<p>As to the distance, I was mainly going for the perceptions most people here have, which is having a definite divide between humans and Nature/spirits. The spirits are still closer to me than to most folks, and I see them as much more immediate.</p>
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		<title>By: therioshamanism</title>
		<link>http://therioshamanism.com/2010/02/20/the-quandary-of-the-other/#comment-1753</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[therioshamanism]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Feb 2010 10:12:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://therioshamanism.com/?p=317#comment-1753</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Oh, it does work both ways! Sometimes I ask for help, sometimes it is offered unasked.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh, it does work both ways! Sometimes I ask for help, sometimes it is offered unasked.</p>
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		<title>By: Riverwolf</title>
		<link>http://therioshamanism.com/2010/02/20/the-quandary-of-the-other/#comment-1748</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Riverwolf]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Feb 2010 02:00:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://therioshamanism.com/?p=317#comment-1748</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[It&#039;s a bit of a conundrum, this exploring the &quot;other.&quot; In my own experience, I don&#039;t feel as much of a connection to African American (or, more specifically, African) culture as I do to things European or even Native American. Asian and Islander influences end up in the middle somewhere. I see your point about being aware of the other and creating dialogue, but I wonder if it&#039;s simply a reflection of who we are. If we&#039;re basically white Europeans living in North America, then it makes sense that we&#039;re drawn to the corresponding spiritual heritage. 

But it&#039;s more complicated, isn&#039;t it? Our wider culture, for better or worse, has told us younger whites that &quot;it&#039;s a black thing, so you wouldn&#039;t get it.&quot; We&#039;re constantly reminded that we cannot possibly understand African culture (since we never did, originally) or that of African Americans. There&#039;s the whole legacy, also, of devaluing these cultures and mocking them. So to take steps to open a dialogue with &quot;other,&quot; whites need to be pretty confident in the &quot;purity&quot; of their motives, don&#039;t you think? 

To your other point about our tendency to label things as &quot;either/or&quot;--that&#039;s one reason I&#039;m attracted to shamanism, since it offers more freedom. Our Christian/Western foundations have created this tendency, I believe, but shamanism offers us an opportunity to move beyond. But it isn&#039;t easy and it we won&#039;t ever &quot;arrive,&quot; I don&#039;t think. I think shamanism offers us Westerners an opportunity to push the boundaries and stretch ourselves. Certainly sounds like what you&#039;re doing. And we each have different areas to explore. Keep pushing!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s a bit of a conundrum, this exploring the &#8220;other.&#8221; In my own experience, I don&#8217;t feel as much of a connection to African American (or, more specifically, African) culture as I do to things European or even Native American. Asian and Islander influences end up in the middle somewhere. I see your point about being aware of the other and creating dialogue, but I wonder if it&#8217;s simply a reflection of who we are. If we&#8217;re basically white Europeans living in North America, then it makes sense that we&#8217;re drawn to the corresponding spiritual heritage. </p>
<p>But it&#8217;s more complicated, isn&#8217;t it? Our wider culture, for better or worse, has told us younger whites that &#8220;it&#8217;s a black thing, so you wouldn&#8217;t get it.&#8221; We&#8217;re constantly reminded that we cannot possibly understand African culture (since we never did, originally) or that of African Americans. There&#8217;s the whole legacy, also, of devaluing these cultures and mocking them. So to take steps to open a dialogue with &#8220;other,&#8221; whites need to be pretty confident in the &#8220;purity&#8221; of their motives, don&#8217;t you think? </p>
<p>To your other point about our tendency to label things as &#8220;either/or&#8221;&#8211;that&#8217;s one reason I&#8217;m attracted to shamanism, since it offers more freedom. Our Christian/Western foundations have created this tendency, I believe, but shamanism offers us an opportunity to move beyond. But it isn&#8217;t easy and it we won&#8217;t ever &#8220;arrive,&#8221; I don&#8217;t think. I think shamanism offers us Westerners an opportunity to push the boundaries and stretch ourselves. Certainly sounds like what you&#8217;re doing. And we each have different areas to explore. Keep pushing!</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Kelley</title>
		<link>http://therioshamanism.com/2010/02/20/the-quandary-of-the-other/#comment-1747</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Kelley]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Feb 2010 22:59:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://therioshamanism.com/?p=317#comment-1747</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Well said.  No  only is Harner the demographics you noted, but core shamanism is at heart Christian.  It&#039;s all about black/white, good/bad.  That&#039;s an extremely polar projection.  And not polar bear!

xxoo

Am RT this on FB.  I&#039;m so code.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well said.  No  only is Harner the demographics you noted, but core shamanism is at heart Christian.  It&#8217;s all about black/white, good/bad.  That&#8217;s an extremely polar projection.  And not polar bear!</p>
<p>xxoo</p>
<p>Am RT this on FB.  I&#8217;m so code.</p>
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		<title>By: Siege</title>
		<link>http://therioshamanism.com/2010/02/20/the-quandary-of-the-other/#comment-1743</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Siege]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Feb 2010 16:35:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://therioshamanism.com/?p=317#comment-1743</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I find that traumatic experiences in general put people closer to &quot;crossing over&quot;, and that can result in a more active relationship with spirits. It isn&#039;t a healthy way to do it, and a lot of people think of these experiences as being all in the mind; but yes, I do think that as part of your PTSD you have become closer to the spirit realm.

I also hope that as you heal, you can retain that close relationship. If it does fade, remember that sometimes the mind closes briefly so it can heal a part related to that experience, and then opens up again when it&#039;s ready to accept things as they are. (That&#039;s been my experience, and what my guides have been telling me.)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I find that traumatic experiences in general put people closer to &#8220;crossing over&#8221;, and that can result in a more active relationship with spirits. It isn&#8217;t a healthy way to do it, and a lot of people think of these experiences as being all in the mind; but yes, I do think that as part of your PTSD you have become closer to the spirit realm.</p>
<p>I also hope that as you heal, you can retain that close relationship. If it does fade, remember that sometimes the mind closes briefly so it can heal a part related to that experience, and then opens up again when it&#8217;s ready to accept things as they are. (That&#8217;s been my experience, and what my guides have been telling me.)</p>
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		<title>By: ..</title>
		<link>http://therioshamanism.com/2010/02/20/the-quandary-of-the-other/#comment-1742</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[..]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Feb 2010 13:46:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://therioshamanism.com/?p=317#comment-1742</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I saw someone a bit ditzy who during an outdoor &#039;find your totem animal&#039; ritual had a mouse jump in her hand. Instead of going &#039;oh, cool!&#039; she said &#039;that&#039;s because I&#039;m a *tiger*&#039;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I saw someone a bit ditzy who during an outdoor &#8216;find your totem animal&#8217; ritual had a mouse jump in her hand. Instead of going &#8216;oh, cool!&#8217; she said &#8216;that&#8217;s because I&#8217;m a *tiger*&#8217;</p>
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